0026 - The Big Lie, One Year Later
Trump has cast doubt on the US election process with repeated claims of election malfeasance. Are these claims real problems or lies to steal power? Screw the suspense, he is lying to steal power, but if you want to know how we know, what evidence shows this and how little evidence supports trump’s treasonous lies then listen to this episode on The Big Lie.
MAKO: Warning. This show contains adult themes and language including a totally spontaneous gathering for some light insurrection.
SQEAKY: Dysevidentia is an inability to reliably process evidence and this is a podcast all about it.
MAKO: This episode was released on January 31st, 2022, and we are discussing dysevidentia because it is clear that millions of people who think ANTIFA did January 6th are suffering from it.
SQEAKY: I am Sqeaky.
MAKO: And I am Mako.
SQEAKY: We discuss logic and evidence...
MAKO: ...because we know if you have evidence of conspiracy, court is the best place to show it.
SQEAKY: You can support us by becoming a patron at patreon.com/dysevidentia.
SUPPORT [0:53] Dysevidentia on Patreon - https://patreon.com/Dysevidentia
MAKO: If you spent the last of your money on lawyers defending you from sedition charges you can still like, subscribe, and leave a review to help us out.
SQEAKY: If you have a paper you have written or a small business to plug let us know.
MAKO: Today we are going to discuss the Big Lie: The delusion that Trump won the 2020 election.
SQEAKY: Today we're going to discuss the big lie that Trump's hands are bigger than his...
MAKO: The lie that he just has normal adult-sized hands. I once saw somebody on Reddit a while ago that was comparing Trump to Schwarzenegger and he's like oh yeah he hates Schwarznegger because Schwarnegger's actually everything that Trump claims to be like successful businessman, actually popular, and has big hands.
SQEAKY: Has big hands!
MAKO, laughing: That's so good!
SQEAKY: Well we've finally gotten a request from one of our Patreon supporters about a topic to firmly do and we get it moments before we're gonna start recording.
MAKO: Oh that's very unfortunate timing actually.
SQEAKY: So we got this interesting infographic that actually has sources that shows uh about media consolidation. So we will have an episode coming up on that but we haven't done any research yet.
SQEAKY: We figured since it's been about a year we should the Big Lie and everything going on about January 6th la- uh... last year.
MAKO: Yeah. January 6th, 2021.
SQEAKY: I wanted to say this year but...
SQEAKY: This year Kazakhstan decided to throw that party.
SOURCE [2:14] Kazahkstan had a riot on Jan 5 and Russia troops stepped in to support dictator - https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/1071542831/week-in-politics-russia-sends-troops-to-kazakhstan-jobs-up-jan-6-anniversary
SQEAKY: Have you been following that at all?
MAKO: Nah not really. Not closely anyway.
SQEAKY: Me neither but I guess a bunch of Russian troops just pulled out of Kazakhstan so that that says interesting things about how they ran their party.
SOURCE [2:22] Russia pulls troops out of Kazakhstan - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/russia-led-bloc-starts-pulling-troops-out-kazakhstan-2022-01-13/
MAKO: Did they move them to Ukraine?
SQEAKY, laughing: Probably. I don't know but probably. If I were playing risk that's what I would do.
MAKO: Well yeah.
SQEAKY: Ukraine is key to defending from a European incursion and deprive somebody from the 15 points Europe gives you.
MAKO: Well Russian troop movements in Ukraine has also been in the news lately.
SQEAKY: Oh yeah yeah yeah. They keep putting troops right on the border and yeah. It looks like there's gonna be blood. I hope not but...
MAKO: Yeah it's definitely escalating in that direction.
SQEAKY: Yeah. So we didn't have any other corrections.
MAKO: Oh fun!
SQEAKY: No factual corrections anyway. I checked Twitter and our email and our Reddit and all that so we've been doing pretty good on the factual accuracy. And if you have corrections there's a bunch of ways you can reach out to us. You can reach out to us on our Patreon, patreon.com/dysevidentia. But we also have a...
SUPPORT US [3:08] Dysevidentia on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/dysevidentia
MAKO: We have a subreddit, r/dysevidentia.
CONTACT [3:12] Dysevidentia on Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/Dysevidentia/
SQEAKY: You can tweet at us, @dysevidentia.
CONTACT [3:14] Dysevidentia on Twitter - https://twitter.com/dysevidentia
MAKO: We have a Discord. You can find a link to that in the show notes.
CONTACT [3:15] Dysevidentia on Discord - https://discord.gg/EZtcgdsCDA
SQEAKY: We also have a YouTube and you can find the link to that in the show notes.
CONTACT [3:17] Dysevidentia on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBbU3rnK52CXUkK0cJ-o29g
MAKO: We have an email, email@example.com.
CONTACT [3:23] Dysevidentia by email - Contact@dysevidentia.com
SQEAKY: And finally we have links to all of this stuff up at dysevidentia.com itself.
CONTACT [3:26] Dysevidentia.com - https://dysevidentia.com
MAKO: But we're not on Facebook 'cause fuck Mark Zuckerberg.
SQEAKY: Oh god if we ever run out of material we will sign up for Facebook. What?!
SQEAKY: Well just to browse I mean it's so full of it man.
MAKO: Yeah all the big things on Facebook that's worth talking about here on the podcast we can hear about Facebook talking about it from other sources. We don't need to immerse ourselves in the cesspit.
SQEAKY: And like we'll ever run out of material.
MAKO: Uh yeah okay I will endeavor.
SQEAKY: Like a space shuttle! Wait that one exploded.
SQEAKY: Okay so explode.
SQEAKY: But they do it in all the porn!
COVID MINUTE [4:03]
SQEAKY: There's been a bunch of COVID news but I also wanted to discuss some opinion stuff.
SQEAKY: I've been thinking more about Fauci's change for the... how the ten day quarantine ought to work. It makes a lot of sense to me so I don't know if this is a hot take or this is terrible but once you're symptom free he's still recommending five days- not- Why did I say "he" I mean the whole CDC.
MAKO: Of course, yeah. He's just the face of the CDC.
SQEAKY: It's a good face at that calling morons morons, I love it.
SOURCE [4:19] Fauci Calls Senator Marshall a moron, because he is a moron - https://people.com/politics/fauci-gop-senator-moron-hot-mic-senate-hearing/
SQEAKY: Five days still quarantining if you have no symptoms and then keep wearing a mask. Since masks are primarily there to help you protect other people, what that functionally does is mean that people with no symptoms get an extra work week back. I mean five whole days back, right?
SQEAKY: And when I say work week I shouldn't be tying that to economics 'cause that means going to the grocery store, running errands, picking up your kids at daycare or whatever. It's not just work stuff. We're not going to be turning anybody away with this advice, it's not like anybody is gonna say "Quarantines are bullshit" and then give up on it, people who want to quarantine for ten days are still going to but we might pick up a few people who are marginal. So if there are some people who are on the fence about quarantining and they're like 'oh well I can quarantine for half the time as long as I wear a mask the other half?' we might get some people who quarantine for at least a little bit of the time and that's something that even if people aren't quarantine the whole ten days or even the whole five days, if people do it for even a few days, that can prevent potentially thousands of infections across the whole country. That seems like a good idea to me. And that's just purely my opinion. I don't have good sources or anything on this.
MAKO: I'm curious as to h- 'Cause since a lot of this is reliant on self-evaluation of things like symptoms, I'm curious as to how many people are going to mess up in that evaluation, they're gonna go out and they're gonna be emboldened by this news and they're going to cause more infections anyway. I don't have hard numbers on most of that stuff of course this is you're putting your opinion out there I'm putting my opinion out there, it still seems like it could be a wash and this entire premise is ultimately not even where we should be in the first place.
MAKO: We should be in a better place making better decisions than choosing between one pile of shit and another.
SQEAKY: We should also have universal healthcare.
SQEAKY: Yeah, yeah. I'm with you on the we shouldn't be choosing between two piles of shit. I guess the people who are more likely to... I was about to make a logical fallacy, I was about to say that the group who's more likely to be wrong was also the group more likely to ignore it but anybody can be wrong, that just happens all across the board. So I don't know, maybe it would be a wash but I feel like the people who are making the good-faith errors will be vastly outnumbered by the people who operated in bad faith but might try to operate in good faith if good faith requires less effort. No numbers, just feelings.
MAKO: Yep. I don't know.
SQEAKY: Okay. One of the people in our Discord put up a- or they wrote some papers and put up a few sources about school walkouts in a bunch of places so I decided to gather some of those 'cause it shows how younger people today are being more active and vocal and I really like that.
MAKO: Okay so I hadn't looked too closely at these, first thing I was gonna ask is "Is the staff or the students walking out", sounds like you're saying students.
SQEAKY: In every place students walked out, in a few places the staff walked out.
MAKO: As well?
SQEAKY: In Boston, I don't remember the amount of students but some forty percent of the staff of the whole Boston education system also walked out with the students.
SOURCE [7:06] Boston school walkout - https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/01/14/metro/boston-students-walk-out-this-morning-calling-remote-learning-stronger-covid-19-safety-measures/
SQEAKY: Yeah. And forty percent is of teachers and faculty and just a huge amount of the students. I don't have good numbers for that one but this happened the week after Boston had 33,000 cases and 50,000 the week before.
MAKO: Yeah that's harsh.
SQEAKY: Lots of cases. And we'll have sources for both of those. There's the Boston Globe and cbslocal.com are our two sources there but uh just some other schools that had this. Denver had a school walkout, we have abcnews.go.com. But the students were really upset that there wasn't a mask mandate and most other places are mandating masks and even handing them out, in Boston they're giving masks out for free.
SOURCE [7:38] Denver school walkout - https://abcnews.go.com/US/denver-students-join-nationwide-protests-classroom-walkouts-covid/story?id=82373229
MAKO: That's good.
SQEAKY: But I guess the wildfires in Denver burned up all the masks so fuck them. Is that too tasteless?
SQEAKY: We'll run it by some of our people that actually live in Denver, see what they think.
SQEAKY: New York school had a walkout, the teachers approved but didn't walk out with them so to go to your question. And the last place I picked was Chicago but they also used the opportunity to protest about police funding and police violence because they've been raising their police budgets like so many have been but they don't have any emergency mental health service like most places in the US and the students are protesting that because if you're going to have a nervous breakdown 'cause the country and your city are going to shit why isn't there someone to call for help with that but there's plenty of people to call for help if you... I don't know, want to get shot.
SOURCE [8:03] New York school walkout - https://nypost.com/2022/01/11/nyc-students-walk-out-of-class-to-protest-covid-conditions/
SOURCE [8:08] Chicago school walkout - https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-public-schools-covid-back-to-school-student-walkout-tt-0114-20220114-wtylijvekneydb65i2tw4jm43u-story.html
MAKO: I was gonna say, have somebody that has no idea what they're looking at end up tasing you.
MAKO: Yeah. America!
SQEAKY: Okay. Fuckin' terrible. A few other sources, still going over just basic numbers, try to at least touch on those every episode.
SQEAKY: Vaccinations are still getting better. We're up to seventy-six percent in the US are fully vaccinated. That's nice.
SOURCE [8:48] Vaccination is getting better - https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/
MAKO: That's a pretty good number, yeah.
SQEAKY: Even though the Boston school system had a ton of cases, Massachusetts is still leading the way in vaccination: ninety-three percent of Massachusetts is fully vaccinated.
MAKO: We are starting to get to the point in the pandemic where asking the question of how- what percentage of people are boosted is also somewhat relevant.
SQEAKY: I don't have good numbers on that one yet.
MAKO: Yeah unfortunately. I haven't seen any publications with solid numbers on that yet.
SQEAKY: Why don't we dig deeper for the next episode?
SQEAKY: So to name and shame, Wyoming, Alabama, Mississippi, and Idaho are all racing for the bottom with between forty eight and fifty percent being vaccinated there. Hey Nebraska's ahead.
MAKO: That's something.
SQEAKY: I think we're at sixty something percent. We were thoroughly in the middle of the pack, I think we were 27th when I last looked.
MAKO: Yeah we're we're not doing bad. And our immediate in Nebraska in particular is actually doing pretty good.
SQEAKY: You mean the one city in Nebraska where people give a shit about each other?
SQEAKY: I could phrase that better. The one city in Nebraska and it only seems that people give a shit about each other in cities but I guess Lincoln, Nebraska exists. That's really more of a hamlet. A thorp.
MAKO, laughing: That's more than a hamlet.
SQEAKY: A county seat?
MAKO: I don't know like it does bother me a little bit to imply that more rural people don't care about one another and...
SQEAKY: But statistically.
MAKO: Well politically I would say they-
MAKO: -don't really care about one another but-
SQEAKY: Okay that's fair.
MAKO: -outside of politics there is actually a really strong notion in a lot of places in America if you live in a rural area and you see your neighbor is... like their car is broken down on the side of the road for example. And I actually when I was driving between Salt Lake and Omaha we had to divert because I-80 was closed we had to take some really weird country roads through Colorado and we did have to make a pit stop and every single car stopped to ask if we are okay.
SQEAKY: Well that's pretty awesome. And you're right, I shouldn't just say these people don't care, I think most people genuinely do care about other people but there's so much misinformation that people-
SQEAKY: -think that like masks are taking away our freedom and that's more harmful than the virus and logical contortions that so many of us shortcut to saying "They don't care"-
SQEAKY: -'cause the end result isn't any different than them not caring but that's really... They're people, they're real people-
SQEAKY: -and they usually care.
MAKO: It's usually political stuff and I mean from my own opinion- I don't know this but my own opinion I think the big reason why rural people care less about the political stuff is 'cause they have fewer people to engage in discourse about the political stuff with.
SQEAKY: Alright so I agree with your logic getting there but I disagree with your premise that they don't care about the political stuff. I think they really do care about the political stuff but having fewer people to discuss it with means they often just get a soundbite version of it and conservative talking points are way easier to convey in soundbites.
MAKO: I'm piggybacking the- the c- I'm not saying they don't care about politics.
SQEAKY: Okay, okay.
MAKO: I'm piggybacking on the previous context-
MAKO: -where we were saying they don't care about other people on the political stuff-
SQEAKY: Got you.
MAKO: -hat's what I'm referencing.
SQEAKY: Okay I think we're both on the same page here, we just both of us chose words imperfectly.
SQEAKY: Blah. We left off on vaccination rates before running down that-
SQEAKY: -rabbit hole. Worldwide vaccination rates seem to be improving pretty rapidly, 4.1 billion people are vaccinated so that's about half of the planet, that's nice.
SOURCE [12:05] Worldwide vaccinations seem to be improving swiftly - https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
MAKO: Yup. It's good.
SQEAKY: One other point that's directly related to dysevidentia. I've been seeing people making arguments on social media actually citing sources because lots of people are now doing things like demanding that we cite sources so that's good.
MAKO: That's a step in the right direction but I feel like there's a caveat.
SQEAKY: So a lot of people aren't investigating the sources appropriately and they're just saying 'Oh the New York Times is always a good source, I'll just trust what this person says' and we'll put this very specific link to the New York Times in there and there's a specific link to an article and the whole headline of the article is "The CDC concedes that cloth masks do not protect against the virus as effectively as other masks". So when you put that into Twitter or LinkedIn or Discord or even just see the Google search result page, sometimes it shortens it to "The CDC concedes that cloth masks do not protect" or "...do not protect against the virus" and that whole second half of the sentence makes a world of difference.
SOURCE [12:47] Liars are using this NYT link to claim masks are useless - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/14/health/cloth-masks-covid-cdc.html
SQEAKY: 'Cause when you read it they definitely help but they're not as good as N95 masks or full-face respirators or something.
MAKO: And we've known that for months.
SQEAKY: Oh yeah, yeah, we have.
MAKO: That's not news.
SQEAKY: But people are making these claims by creating this aire of truthiness...
MAKO: Yeah but they're taking facts and they're contorting the context for it-
SQEAKY: I think-
MAKO: -to create a different conclusion.
SQEAKY: I think I'll see if I can have our graphics guy snip one of these screenshots and put it in the video for the YouTube watchers because it looks really credible when somebody says "Cloth masks don't help" and then they link and then it shows like a picture of somebody wearing a mask or it shows y'know the New York Times webpage and then it shows the New York Times saying the CDC concedes cloth masks don't protect and it's just like fuck, arguing against the soundbite is so hard.
VISUAL [13:27] - Screenshot of misleading headline truncation
MAKO: Yeah. It also adds to the the truthiness- it's not really truthiness but like the belivability of it now they're- it seems they're saying it a whole lot more that Omicron is out and they're like oh all these mutations so people will just passively believe oh I guess it mutated into something that cloth masks don't protect you against.
SQEAKY: That- That can't really be a thing 'cause a virus is still gonna travel in droplets unless you get a virus that doesn't do that which I guess you could evolve but-
MAKO: For people that know the mechanism how it's transmitted, that is what people are going to be lead to believe. But then if that is the case then where's all this news talking about this extra mutation? Like I did have somebody try to tell me that cloth masks are now useless against Omicron I'm like hold on, if that were true then that means the virus is no longer being transmitted on droplets, where is that news? I haven't seen any of that, nobody's talked about any of the mechanisms, they've just made this high level blanket statement and I have to ask questions because that's- well, that's part of how you sniff out bullshit if I'm being blunt.
SQEAKY: Sniffing out bullshit is important for everyone to do and unfortunately we all have to be vigilant all the time which means it's uh... going to be error-prone.
SQEAKY: Okay so, on to Trump.
SQEAKY: Know what? This is better than talking about people dying right now. No, talking about impending demise is better?
MAKO: Well- I mean...
SQEAKY: There's worse?
MAKO: I guess it depends. I mean 'cause yeah on one hand a bunch of people dying now is really bad right now but there's a lot of individual things you can do to mitigate whereas the whole Big Lie is a threat to the democracy and potentially the fall of America into fascism and...
SQEAKY: Oh come on we're barely a democracy anyway.
MAKO: Eh... I mean you're not wrong but like we're not full-blown fascist.
SQEAKY: You know, I thought living in a pornocracy would be more fun.
*Sqeaky laughs like a chicken*
*Sqeaky runs into a wall*
SQEAKY: Ow, my face.
MAKO: Hey Sqeaky, are you okay? You don't normally walk into walls that hard.
SQEAKY: Not really. I'm blind! And I couldn't get a new gaming computer.
MAKO: We will circle back to the gaming computer. Why are you blind?
SQEAKY: Well it has to do with the gaming computer. See this?
*Sqeaky shows a piece of paper*
MAKO: This is a receipt for a fifty-five gallon drum of lube.
*Sqeaky goes through more papers*
SQEAKY: Oh uh... not that. This!
MAKO: A coupon for a free top of the line gaming computer from the Trump Corporation?
SOURCE [16:12] Trump’s failed businesses - https://time.com/3988970/donald-trump-business/
SQEAKY: Well it started when I booked a trip to Atlantic City on gotrump.com, the luxury travel search engine.
SOURCE [16:17] GoTrump.com failed travel search on wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoTrump.com
MAKO: It says to be redeemed at any Trump casino. So that follows except that shut down in 2006.
SOURCE [16:20] Trump casino Shut down often - https://www.businessinsider.com/how-trump-bankrupted-the-taj-mahal-2017-5
SQEAKY: And I booked a trip but when I got out of the plane I was in Reno.
MAKO: Who did you fly with? They took you west; Atlantic City is east from here.
SQEAKY: Uh Trump Airlines. In Reno I took an Uber to Vegas and I read a whole Trump Magazine on the trip.
SOURCE [16:39] Trump Magazine Failed and lost this journalist healthcare - https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/donald-trump-magazine-employee-confessional-bankrupt-2016-214155/
MAKO: Because Trump had a casino in Vegas?
SQEAKY: And I ate at the Trump Steakhouse there.
SOURCE [16:44] Trump Steakhouse was apparently terrible- https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/12/trump-grill-review
SOURCE [16:44] Trumps steaks failure - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Steaks
MAKO: Did you go blind from the health code violations?
SOURCE [16:46] Trump Streakhouse was shutdown for healthcode violations - https://www.grubstreet.com/2012/11/donald-trump-steakhouse-health-violations.html
SQEAKY: Uh... No, I could still see but the roaches weren't very tasty and I still needed cash so I tried classes at Trump University.
SOURCE [16:54] Trump U was shut down after being labeled a rip-off - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_University
MAKO: I suppose they would take pretty much anyone but how is that supposed to make you money?
SQEAKY: Trump claimed it would make me rich. When that didn't work I took out a second mortgage with Trump mortgage.
SOURCE [17:02] Trump Mortgage lasted 4 years, longer than most of his ventures - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Mortgage
*Sqeaky grabs more papers*
MAKO: Why are these mortgage papers written in crayon? Like not just the parts you wrote, literally the whole thing.
SQEAKY: Well anyway I had cash so I tried to fly back to Omaha but Trump Airlines was defunct.
SOURCE [17:14] Trump shuttle, his airline shutdown in 92 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Shuttle
MAKO: Okay but why are you blind?
SQEAKY: So I had a few days to wait for a real airline and in the meantime I met with a board game club and played Trump the Game.
SOURCE [17:23] Trump the game - https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1824/trump-game/ratings
MAKO: So you realized what your life had come to and drank Trump vodka causing you to go blind?
SOURCE [17:28] Technically trump vodka is still sold, but only in one country and only for holidays and trump doesn't get royalties from it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Vodka
SQEAKY: Yeah, exactly.
MAKO: Well that... isn't supposed to happen. Did they put antifreeze in it?
SOURCE [17:33] Actually happened and referenced in the simpsons - https://nowiknow.com/wine-and-antifreeze/
JOKE [17:33] Simpson Antifreeze - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axhITBeOEZs
SQEAKY: Uh, maybe. It was sweet but I should have just gone with ABK Kustomz.
MAKO: Yeah, with code evidence you or anyone could save ten percent on a custom gaming computer.
SQEAKY: Yeah, so much easier to go to abkkustomz.com than accidentally go to Vegas and go blind drinking Trump vodka.
SPONSOR [15:46] Get a custom gaming computer for 10% less with code evidence - https://abkkustomz.com/
JAN 6 PANEL [15:46]
MAKO: Most of you should know what the January 6th, 2021 attack on the Capitol is. I hope most of you know what this is. If you do not, I strongly recommend you pause and look it up. Real quick, it just-
SQEAKY: For those of you who refuse to look it up, it's when a bunch of Trump supporters were egged on by the President and attacked the Capitol. Tried to hang Mike Pence and do other-
SQEAKY: -not obviously intelligent things.
MAKO: The stated goal was to quote "Stop the steal" because they felt that they could prevent the certifying of the election results and thus keep Trump in power 'cause they thought that the whole election was corrupt.
SQEAKY: And there is reasons for that, it is not clean and it is convoluted.
MAKO: Yeah so there was a riot and I am deliberately using the word "riot" because the Capitol police Chief labeled it a riot as it was happening.
SQEAKY: It didn't feel like a riot, I don't know.
MAKO: They labeled it one.
SQEAKY: Yeah okay. It just felt- It felt like a logically distinct insurrection. Right like... Like I've seen riots, right? Riots look fun to participate in.
MAKO: So okay.
MAKO: These two are not mutually exclusive. As it was happening it was labeled a riot and then later people started pinning the term insurrection on it and insurrection is the correct term as well as sedition in different parts.
SQEAKY: Something can be a riot and an insurrection, right. I just feel like there wasn't enough loud voices, random gunfire, and fire for it to be a riot. I feel like we need- You need a more cohesive grievance to have a riot because you need people to be actually angry not artificially angry and confused to have a riot. These people were just too dumb to be rioting.
MAKO: Not sure I agree but-
MAKO: -that- that's a stance. That's definitely a stance.
SQEAKY: I'm shitposting man. I'm just using my mouth to do it.
SQEAKY: Okay anyway.
MAKO: Anyway. So okay we'll circle back on a lot of the more nuanced details regarding the riot/insurrection/sedition but in response to this, a few things were attempted to try to answer questions about how this happened and who should be punished and to what to extent. So initially a bicameral commission was attempted to be formed.
SQEAKY: When you say bicameral you mean Republicans and Democrats-
SQEAKY: -or do you mean between the two houses, congress and senate?
MAKO: Uh... Actually the source I read didn't really elaborate beyond that. I think it was between the two houses.
SQEAKY: Okay. Yeah bicameral is the right word for two houses.
SOURCE [20:22] Bicameral Definition - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bicameral
MAKO: Okay. Yeah. Okay so after the January 6th attack it w- a bicameral condition was attempted to be formed in order to answer questions about how it happened and who should be punished and to what extent. This commission was something that had to be voted on in the senate and it was filibustered in the senate, completely blocked. Some time went by, people still wanted to form something to try to get answers about what happened with the insurrection and eventually on July 7th, 2021, a select committee was formed in response.
SOURCE [20:55] United States House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select_Committee_on_the_January_6_Attack
SQEAKY: And that was just by the House?
MAKO: Yes. Just the House.
SQEAKY: So it didn't involve the House and the Senate, so it became a unicameral investigation not a bicameral. Okay, cool.
MAKO: The committee was composed of seven Democrats, two Republicans. The two Republicans that are on it are the only two Republicans in the House that voted in favor of it.
SQEAKY: Liz Cheney and someone else?
MAKO: Uh... Adam Kinzinger I think?
SQEAKY: We'll fact-check that and post.
MAKO: And since the formation or more specifically the source that I have talks about what has happened all the way up to the end of 2021 and you're gonna now be hearing about this in the end of January 2022 so there's gonna be more information than what I'm saying but by the end of 2021 since it's formation they had already interviewed over 300 people and interviewed over 35,000 documents pertaining to the January 6th attack.
SQEAKY: Okay so you mentioned the commission had some results. What kinds of results are we seeing so far and what is likely to be the best case for democracy and the worst case for democracy? And in this case I don't mean the Democratic Party I mean American citizen's continued right to choose our leaders. When I say democracy that's what I mean.
MAKO: So the worst case is that nothing happens. Like especially if we find damning things and then nothing happens that further erodes the trust in justice in the country for a lot of people.
SQEAKY: So with Trump lying and saying things like the election was definitely faked, I think that needs to be punished because that's obviously untrue and he started...
MAKO: Yeah, yeah, that is literally- especially in how it was executed on January 6th, that is literally sedition.
SQEAKY: Yeah, so if sedition goes unpunished, it emboldens people to try attacking the country again and eventually somebody will succeed so we wanna prevent these attacks as early and as vigorously as possible without infringing on rights.
SQEAKY: Yeah that would be disastrous if the commission found... If the commission couldn't do something to punish the problems we already know about and doesn't uncover any other problems or uncovers problems only to not be able to punish them. Okay. But the best case. What's the best case for us?
MAKO: Uh... Best case would be we get a clearer picture about what happened, particularly the motivations of people. 'Cause like where people were and what orders are given, that's something we knew day of but understanding the motivations and preparations, that's gonna be where all the damning information is.
SQEAKY: Okay. So who's on this committee? Why should we trust them?
MAKO: The full committee staff is forty people but the-
SQEAKY: Oh- Why don't you tell me who's on the committee then just start going off on a diatribe there.
MAKO: The representatives on the committee are Benny Thompson from Mississippi, Zoe Lofgren from California, Adam Schiff from California, Pete Aguilar --I probably butchered that, I apologize-- from California, Stephanie Murphy from Florida, Jamie Raskin from Maryland, Elaine Luria from Virginia. I might have mispronounced that one as well. Those are all the Democrats. The two Republicans are Liz Cheney from Wyoming and Adam Kinzinger from Illinois.
SQEAKY: So that seems to be a pretty big spread from across the country and that's probably intentionally chosen that way and they've tried to get some Republicans so they can claim it's bipartisan.
MAKO: Again it's the only two Republicans that voted in favor. I don't know much about Adam Kinzinger but Liz Cheney is someone that has been getting into news headlines for being a bit divise in the Republican space.
SQEAKY: Well she's not literally sucking Trump's dick so of course she's not zealous enough.
MAKO: She's not toeing the party line so here we are.
SQEAKY: You have some other stuff in your notes about the committee staff-
SQEAKY: -so I presume it's not just the seven congress people but they've got some...
MAKO: Those are the people that are heading up the charge- or in charge of the committee but of course they need to have a large support staff in order to go through all the process for performing this investigation. They have about forty people on their staff that's divided into teams. They have a team for focusing on the preparation and response by Federal and local law enforcement, they have a team for examining the funding for the demonstrations and I believe that's beyond the scope of just January 6th, just anything that's like oh we're contesting the election results, we're going to do a demonstration, they look at the funding relating to that. Third team is investigating online misinformation and extremist activity related to the Big Lie.
SQEAKY: Oh we should give them some links.
MAKO: The fourth team is focusing on the pressure campaigns in DC and state capitols where people just show up and try to apply like show up as a mob- well mob is probably the wrong word but they apply pressure to legislators... but yeah they just do demonstrations to apply pressure to get what they want but they do so without any kind of violence, they do it completely legally but still they're actively trying to exert pressure.
SQEAKY: They're attempting to apply political pressure outside of the political mechanisms to attempt to legalize something that would normally be illegal.
SQEAKY: And the pressure campaigns could be anything from like Trump calling and asking him to find 11,000 more votes all the way up to 'We've assembled a mob outside and if you don't rule in court this way you're gonna see what that mob can do', right?
SOURCE [25:42] Trump calling to demand election fraud by finding an incorrect number of votes - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/03/trump-georgia-raffensperger-call-biden-washington-post
SQEAKY: That's- Okay.
MAKO: The fifth and final team is focusing on investigating specifically the organizers of the demonstrations that happened on January 6th.
SQEAKY: Whoo. Okay.
MAKO: So they've uncovered a lot of things but they haven't really talked about --especially in detail-- a whole lot of them. The investigation is still ongoing and they don't really have any enforcement power themselves if they find something damning. That usually gets forwarded to the Justice Department and then the Justice Department decides what it wants to do with them.
SQEAKY: So the best they can do is expose a whole bunch of stuff and then hope the Justice Department does the right thing and punishes people even though we've had a long history of our Justice Department letting political leaders get away with shit-
SQEAKY: like saying "We can't go after Nixon, it would be bad for the country. We need to heal." And then sane people like how the fuck can we heal without justice?
MAKO: So the Justice Department in this case they could probably be doing more, maybe, but they're definitely doing more than nothing. They're doing an okay amount.
SQEAKY: Yeah I'm not saying the Justice Department is doing nothing. What I am saying is we don't know how much and we won't know until it might be too late for us to do something to protest it.
MAKO: Yeah pretty much.
SQEAKY: In my opinion it's unlikely they're gonna go after the big problems, the leaders of these things. The political leaders seem to get away with this. I'm of the opinion that everyone who voted to overturn the election 'cause they were- The reason Jan 6th was at issue here was the electoral votes. I think everyone that voted to get rid of the election and just reinstate Trump, all those people need to see a day in court for sedition charges is my opinion. And that's just me, not citing anything, that's my personal opinion. And I'm not calling for violence, don't do that, but yeah if the Justice Department does less than that I won't be happy.
MAKO: Prepare to not be happy.
SQEAKY: I'm ready.
SQEAKY: I mean voting to- Voting to get rid of all of the people's votes, that's not how you run a country that nominally the citizens should choose their leaders. It's the leaders saying 'We're going to ignore the citizens.' That should be a crime in my opinion.
SQEAKY: And it's not right now. It's not. So, we won't see that.
MAKO: So the biggest collection of information that the committee has selected so far was from Mark Meadows who is the former Chief of Staff for Trump. There was a lot of communication that was going back and forth between a bunch of people in the Trump administration and Mark Meadows more than other people it seems was at the center of that communication. And you'd think that Trump would be at the center of communication but a whole lot of people were like 'What could we do to get Trump to tell people to stand down?', a lot of that communication went through Mark Meadows.
SOURCE [27:50] What has the Jan. 6 committee done and where it is headed? - https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2022-01-04/jan-6-committee-investigation-4180619.html
SQEAKY: So Mark Meadows was the voice of reason?
MAKO: He was just positioned.
SQEAKY: Okay so people were yelling at Mark Meadows to try and get Trump to calm down and Trump was like 'No I definitely wanna stay in power no matter what' and then eventually when it looked like things were getting so bad that they couldn't avoid it-
MAKO: We don't have all of those records. Well okay: At the time of this recording, very very recently, the committee did get the White House records on the January 6th insurrection which is more closely related to Trump and we got the records from Mark Meadows purely through his cooperation. So, yeah.
SOURCE [28:45] Trump White House records are now in the hands of J an 6 committee - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-capitol-riot-committee-records-b1998102.html
SQEAKY: If Mark Meadows turned things over then either he has a deal or he thinks what he did isn't criminal.
MAKO: Although since him initially handing over all of the documents he did he has from what I was able to read stopped cooperating with the committee.
SQEAKY: Oh interesting.
MAKO: Steven Bannon is another person that got into news headlines because of contempt.
SQEAKY: And that was just him refusing to respond to subpoenas that were legally and lawfully issued, right?
MAKO: Uh, yes. Jeffrey Clark is another person that was held in criminal contempt for refusing to answer questions from the committee. So people are getting in trouble for not cooperating with this committee. A few big names. But yeah most of the information that has been released so far has come from the early cooperation of Mark Meadows. So a few things that stood out from the source that I found as things that the committee has uncovered. The... Trump's outside legal team, I'm not sure exactly how outside... what that means in this context.
SQEAKY: I think it means not officially working for the government, but Trump's personal legal team.
MAKO: That makes sense. But yeah the source didn't quite clarify so I wanna make that clear but Trump's outside legal team camped out in the Willard Hotel which is one block away from the White House in the weeks and days leading up to the January 6th attack. Why is unclear. Jeffrey Clark and others. And Jeffrey Clark is the person I mentioned who is currently in criminal contempt for refusing to answer questions to the committee. Uh we have evidence of Jeffrey Clark suggesting the use of emergency Presidential powers in order to overturn the election including but not limited to seizing voting machines, deploying the national guard, and utilizing the Insurrection Act.
SQEAKY: So he's pretty high up there. He might be another one of those "political leaders" that isn't gonna see justice because technically recommending that isn't illegal but that's clearly seditious-
SQEAKY: -that's treason suggesting the President abuse power to maintain power. Even if that isn't against the law, that is a crime against democracy. That is another attempt to keep people from choosing our own representation in government.
MAKO: And like I said just recently there was a legal battle over the overturning of- not the overturning-
SQEAKY: The turning over of the documents and that went all the way up to the Supreme Court.
MAKO: Yep it went all the way up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court decided that Trump can't block it in an 8-1 vote.
SQEAKY: And Clarence Thomas, the only person who voted against it, his wife is also a pro-Trump zealot. Ah goodness. I should cite the Opening Arguments podcast on that one, shouldn't I?
SOURCE [31:17] Opening Arguments on Supreme Court Ruling against trump - https://openargs.com/oa562-supreme-court-rules-against-trump-interview-with-rep-raja-krishnamoorthi/
MAKO: Yeah probably.
SQEAKY: It's a really good listen, hearing how his wife is way of the deep end and like working for- I'll link- I'll link to their podcast. It's not there for us and clearly somebody who's married to someone doesn't make it their choices but he's too tied up in this to be trusted, he should've recused himself and didn't. But they talk about that in that episode too. There are so many judges who are benefiting personally from making decisions that aren't recusing themself from and Clarence Thomas is one of those that just doesn't ever recuse himself even if he holds stock directly in the thing he's ruling on.
SQEAKY: Sorry, just more of how we don't live in a real functioning government. We have Supreme Court members who multiple times have refused to sit out of things they have a personal financial interest in. And here he has a personal political interest. What? What?
SQEAKY: There should be some separate committee that can just invalidate a vote in the Supreme Court by saying "You're involved". We need more checks and balances 'cause the ones we have clearly don't work right or aren't good enough or something.
MAKO: I feel like they've been deliberately eroded over time, but yeah.
SQEAKY: Oh yeah, people trying to maintain power? People conserving their power?
SQEAKY: Is there a word for this?
SQEAKY: I was gonna say conservative but that's a good word too.
MAKO: Ah, okay.
SQEAKY: I'm also not gonna say Democrats can't be corrupt, it's just it seems in recent years to be lining up on one side.
MAKO: Much more so than the other, yes.
SQEAKY: It's very hard to claim that a poor bartender is wildly corrupt who just recently got into congress when you have people making millions of dollars on writing laws or presiding over court cases for compani- or for things they own stock in.
MAKO: Kinda like when news broke that Manchin is collecting half a million dollars in dividends from coal companies and he's been voting down all the uh, climate change bills?
SOURCE [32:50] Joe Manchin is obviously and flagrantly corrupt - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/21/joe-manchin-pac-saw-surge-of-corporate-donations-as-he-fought-biden-agenda.html
SOURCE [32:58] Joe manchin collects millions in dividend s from Coal stocks, votes against climate change bills - https://www.businessinsider.com/senator-joe-manchin-half-million-year-coal-stocks-climate-crisis-2021-9
SQEAKY: Yeah, shit like that.
SQEAKY: Shit like that is exactly why I say we don't live in a functioning democracy. Can you post a source for that? Yeah, you can do it after the episode but yeah, that that happened, we know what happened, we know McConnell does stuff like this all the time, that's why he has so much fuckin' money. He gets to write laws and he gets to buy stock based on laws he's about to pass or not pass, yeah it's complete bullshit. The people who are leading us are also rigging economic gains so that way- I mean in ways the rest of us couldn't ever hope to benefit or profit from, it's ridiculous.
MAKO: And on this note I do want to say: Fuck you Nancy Pelosi for trying to assert that lawmakers should be able to trade stocks.
SQEAKY: Yeah. Fuck you Nancy Pelosi. Maybe... I can actually imagine a system where lawmakers could trade stock, but right now we have such a massive problem with it it's like I'm supporting Nancy Pelosi because she's the lesser of two evils. I really want somebody else to be the Speaker of the House.
MAKO: We went on a long digression there. So the White House records on the January 6th insurrection are now in the hands of the committee but it has not been long enough for us to know what we get from those records. We just have to wait and see.
SQEAKY: Oh yeah it was a ton of documents. If there's only 35,000 documents they've gone over so far they're probably double that with this.
MAKO: Yeah, probably.
SQEAKY: Our sources there, stripes.com, uh Wikipedia, and the Independent. And I'll make sure to link the Opening Arguments podcast and you've got Business Insider and CNBC for Joe Manchin's obvious corruption. So you've got a few different sources going over what this commission is, what's going on, but we haven't really discussed what they're investigating.
SQEAKY: And you go and get it on the first try?
MAKO: I do what I can.
SQEAKY: We should probably discuss maybe some uh... some timelines of leading up to the event, what happened the day of and what's happened since.
SQEAKY: I'd like to do a little bit of discussion on the time leading up to January 6th-
SQEAKY: -and then about the time after 'cause the day itself deserves its own timeline, right?
MAKO: Yes it- Well it is the day of the big insurrection. Yes there's a lot of little things going on.
SQEAKY: We probably should done this earlier before we talked about the committee but we don't do anything in the correct order here so.
MAKO: Eh we're keeping things high level and now we're filling in detail like we said we would.
SQEAKY: Okay, sure. So the Big Lie started before Trump was even President. He started off saying that the elections were rigged or that votes would be dropped or if he lost he still would've won the popular vote, just permutations of these lies. We've all seen these videos. And he kept that up between January 6th and up to November 3rd. And I have a timeline from New York Magazine, they have a great summary of this stuff, I read it, verified it, looked at their their sources, it seems on level, they are quite partisan though. Uh, I'm not putting anything here that I didn't know about just it's nice to have a source that connects all these things. Okay. Coming up on the midterms in 2018, Trump really hammered home how he thought the next election would be rigged and he started getting more political support because Republicans thought this would in general be a good tactic or strategy for them. Their various ways to make it helpful, it's like the Republicans have been aiming for clamping down on voting rights because it helps them. It's why we had laws up until very recently. What is the name? There was a law- There was a group of laws after the Civil War that restricted how southern states could change their voting and we got rid of that in the middle or late twentieth century. It was the Reconstruction Amendment. So post-Civil War, we put restrictions in place that would keep southern states from changing laws in a racist way to keep people from voting. That went away middle or late twentieth century and since those rules went away we have seen those southern states doing exactly that, clamping down on how people can vote and making it harder in ways that are statistically racist but are not obviously racist. Things like polling places going away. It- Yeah. Little things like that. Or voter ID. The reason why voter ID is such a contentious issue is because if people are really poor or they're leary of government tracking which the people most likely to be in either of those situations are people of ethnic minorities.
SOURCE [35:33] NY Mag Timeline of the Big Lie - https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-campaign-steal-presidency-timeline.html
SOURCE [36:09] Reconstruction amendment prohibited states from denying "the equal protection of the laws" - https://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-12-2-b-race-and-voting-in-the-segregated-south
MAKO: And if you have to pay a registration fee then it can and has been argued that's a voting tax and you can't tax what's a right.
SQEAKY: You can get rid of most these complaints if... If the Republicans really wanted this to be about election security, they could say we need a a photo ID to vote but also the state will give away free photo IDs. Those could be paired together but Republicans are generally against that when the idea is brought up. So that really shows that motivation there.
SQEAKY: So this history of Republicans being against fair voting can show how you can segue that into lying about the elections and they were about to get Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy, two people from the House, the House of Representatives, on board with this lying about the popular vote for the midterms. And they also started putting forward lies about the security of mail-in voting. And again if you can make it harder for people to vote it's more likely only conservatives will vote for a variety of reasons. Sorry I'm trying to articulate this. Why mail-in voting is good for minorities.
SQEAKY: 'Cause if... You even joked about it before we started recording. How some Trump supporters would go and try to be poll watchers and if these ad hoc poll watchers weren't registered poll watchers show up and they just do things like intimidate people who are there to vote...
MAKO: That's what they're- The people I was referring to, that is specifically what their goal is.
SQEAKY: Oh yeah.
MAKO: If they succeed then there's less votes against them.
SQEAKY: It's real easy for racist assholes to go stand out in front of a polling place and try to scare away black people.
SQEAKY: Right. So mail-in voting is good for minorities voting and that's another reason Republicans oppose this so of course they're going to jump onboard with any plan that lies about the elections aren't working correctly. And all of these things are extracted just enough from race or just enough from the reality of the situation that it's hard to argue. They can bundle it up into a little soundbite of Trump won, votes are being thrown away, elections are insecure, pick your soundbite and then run with it. And that was everything leading up to the election. Then there was a different phase, a different set of things started happening but between November 4th and January 5th because of course Jan 6th a new thing happened.
SQEAKY: But after the election happened, so after November 4th, there were still votes coming in at some places and depending on where they were, they- when I say they- The different Republican officials and Trump was calling for different things to happen based on what would let him win.
SQEAKY: One of the first things Trump did after the election even though the numbers didn't show it or support it, was he declared himself victorious. He announced that he had won when a normal person who is interested in the truth would have given their resignation speech. Is resignation the right word?
SQEAKY: Would have given their concession speech. Would have- would have acknowledged loss.
MAKO: Concession, withdrawal, yeah.
SQEAKY: Instead he claimed fraud and he started with a huge pile of lawsuits. They were all pretty much bullshit. One of them actually won but of sixty-two and most of those being thrown out as frivulant-
SQEAKY: I combined the word frivolous and fraudulent. Frivulant. That is a great word to describe these lawsuits. But of the sixty-two, about half were plainly fraud and most the rest were frivolous. There were claims ranging from major voting systems manufacturers faking votes-
MAKO: That one from what I recall was largely against Dominion systems.
SQEAKY: Oh yeah. And Dominion is uh... winning lawsuits and suing back and they're gonna fuck Trump up but these lawsuits had a huge range of things and there was one that they actually won and it was about nothing important because most of those votes were already counted and dealt with but it was about people being able to to fix ballots that had technical issues like they X'd the box instead of filling in the box or whatever so Trump won one of sixty-two and this was about the time when everyone was saying the votes are being thrown out Trump should have won, but Trump had many opportunities to present evidence-
SQEAKY: -and never did in any of the lawsuits that any of this was faked and this is where a lot of people were making dysevidential claims saying well Trump never got to prevent his evidence. Well most of these cases were thrown out because there was no evidence.
MAKO: And there was repeated appeals and it even got to the point where the Supreme Court looked at it and they were like there's no case here.
SQEAKY: Twice actually. Twice the Supreme Court looked at one of these lawsuits and had to... to say no. And at the same time when all these lawsuits were being put forward there was also what you called the pressure campaign. Trump was putting pressure on different states to get different results and like the Georgia call where he made the call to the person who could- who who was administering the election and demanded an extra 11,780 votes and yeah that right there, that's a crime. Trying to go and go around the election system and demand a specific result. And even if you think Trump was operating in good faith that he thought that he'd won, Trump has been on the record saying he thinks a different number of votes was missing, he thought that there was more like a 100,000 votes. Well, if you're gonna... if you're gonna lie and get even a smaller amount of votes, there's still a crime. There's no if's, when's or but's, this is a crime and it's really fucked up and wrong. That we're not charging him criminally for that specifically is problematic in my mind. It means we don't live in a country where the laws apply to all of us.
SQEAKY: Alright. And then finally, during this phase, before January 5th, Trump also tried to force the Justice Department to lie about the election. He wanted the Justice Department to come out and declare the election corrupt even though there's no process for this, there was no investigation by the Justice Department into it, and that made sense. There shouldn't be an investigation into a thing that all the states have their own cover or- they have their own ways to check and investigate and analyze and their own audits. And many states did run audits, real audits, done by people who are well trained auditors, certified to be auditors, and know how elections work, and nobody found malfeasance. Sure there were problems, every election has problems, any time you do something that has millions of parts, millions of ballots for example, you find issues. But the issues are always oh, this machine miscounted by one, look here's where there's a smudge or something. And they're off by a tenth of a percent one way or the other. Not enough to fuck up the election, and we have systems in place that caught and accounted for these issues already. Which preps us for the next phase. There was the events for January 6th itself, and the events since. Do we want to do a timeline of Jan 6 here or should we do- uh let me just discuss some of what's happened since on the Trump side.
SQEAKY: Okay. So after Jan 6, to try to dig for more credibility for his arguments, we've had a series of state audits, things like the Arizona audit. They contracted a non-certified auditor and it looked like they were being paid to generate the result they wanted. Now in the end this result actually didn't come out, I think that's- This is my opinion, this isn't- it's not a good source for this, I think these people running- Cyber Ninjas was the name of the company, chose to not side with Trump because they saw there was no way to reverse the election at this point. Biden was clearly going to be President and if they sided with Trump it would look a lot like treason and they would be in the same legal hotwater Trump is but if they came out and put out something that looked like a real audit, all of the sudden it's not a crime anymore and it kind of damns Trump side that his own audit found more votes for Biden than were already there.
MAKO: The victor writes history comes to mind.
SQEAKY: Yeah if Trump is in a position to have a real claim at this and could cease control, then the Cyber Ninja's audit would be one more piece of evidence that would have cemented for him. But instead, either they didn't get paid enough, or they saw the writing on the wall, or they feared the justice system and they decided to go with what looked to be with truth because again, real auditing companies already audited this stuff and the Cyber Ninjas kinda just shut up and put out things in line with what all the other auditors and what all the other facts said and that fell apart but it was one step that was initiated by Republicans that from every outside appearance looked to be going for a specific answer and that was put Trump back in power. Okay. I just went over a timeline of things on a macro scale. What happened in the months around the event.
SQEAKY: I understand you done a bunch of reading on what happened the day of. What happened Jan 6th?
MAKO: How long do you have?
SQEAKY: Give me just a second.
*Can opening sound*
SQEAKY: I have a fresh can. Let's go.
MAKO: Oh my god.
MAKO: Okay. So I pulled out three different sources and they... there's difference between each of them. The most comprehensive that I was able to find, go figure, the Wikipedia article that is just titled "Timeline of the 2021 United States Capitol attack".
SOURCE [45:29] Timeline of the 2021 United States Capitol attack - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2021_United_States_Capitol_attack
MAKO: Is awesome title for an article. And that one has events spanning from September 29th, 2020 all the way to April 19th, 2021. The other two are a bit more about January 6th specifically. One of 'em ha- details events from 12 PM on the 6th all the way to 3:42 AM on the 7th. 3:42 AM is when Pence finally certified results and everything the protestors were trying to stop was finalized. The other one started from 7:39 PM on January 5th and it goes only until --curiously-- 6:01 PM on the 6th. So yeah, different bits of information, different times.
SOURCE [45:52] A timeline of how the Jan. 6 attack unfolded — including who said what and when - https://www.npr.org/2022/01/05/1069977469/a-timeline-of-how-the-jan-6-attack-unfolded-including-who-said-what-and-when
SOURCE [46:09] January 6 timeline: Key moments from the attack on the Capitol - https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/january-6-capitol-riot-timeline-key-moments/
MAKO: This would take longer than I think we want to dedicate time to, I think we want to put more of our time towards discussion but high level of review of things that have happened. Uh so at noon on the 6th is when Trump got up to the podium and started speaking to the crowd. And he was saying things "We will never give up", "We will never concede". He later gave up and conceded.
SQEAKY: Isn't that the same speech where he said the word fight over twenty times?
SOURCE [46:39] Fight in the speech - https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial
MAKO: Uh, maybe. I have not- I didn't actually watch the video on the speech and I was not watching it live when this was happening so.
SQEAKY: But I just remember arguing with a bunch of people the day after and I just googled up a transcript of his speech and goo- and control f'd for the word "fight".
MAKO: Oh yeah there's transcripts available it would be trivial to verify that again. Okay. At 1 PM the initial wave of protestors got to the police barrier around the capitol, five minutes later Nancy Pelosi bangs the gavel to call the joint session into order, at 1:30 PM the protestors begin to overwhelm the police and they break into the capitol building.
SQEAKY: I did google up a transcript.
SQEAKY: He said fight between twenty and twenty-four times because the word fight's also showing up the rest of the page. But yeah.
MAKO: Okay. But yeah, d-d-d-d-d-d sorry. Backing up where I was saying before. They overwhelmed the police and the police moved back into the building but the protestors are still outside the building at 1:30. Shortly after 2 PM, protestors break through the... like the windows and the door of the building.
SQEAKY: So there's like an hour long speech, half an hour later after the hour long speech they're breaking into the building.
SQEAKY: Wow! That's not a long timeline. How long does it take to walk from where the speech happened to the building?
MAKO: I don't know.
MAKO: 2:20 PM, the Senate is called into recess, the building goes into lockdown. 2:24 PM, Trumps starts tweeting. Tweets specifically "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution." What an inspiring leader- not. 2:38 PM, more tweets and he urged people to stay peaceful, 'kay.
SQEAKY: Seems a little bit late.
MAKO: Little bit. Uh, shortly before 3 PM, rioters finally break into the Senate chamber.
SQEAKY: Now right when people were breaking into the building, that's when the oath keepers were doing their little formation to keep together and barge in, right?
MAKO: That sounds right.
SQEAKY: So we're already past that and we're already past the zip tie guy, okay.
MAKO: This is- this is uh, pretty much- Well the pictures of the ziptie guy that we're most circulated were pictures of him in the...
MAKO: ...the chambers. So this is right around then.
MAKO: 3:11 PM, Representative Mike Gallagher, Republican from Wisconsin, tweeted a video saying that what's going on right now is something that happens in a banana republic. If you want to TLDR that video. And he urged the President to "call this off" and that "the election is over". That... clearly fell on deaf ears. 3:36 PM. White House Press Secretary tweets that Trump has ordered the National Guard into the Capitol. Shortly before 4 PM, Biden addresses the nation and he- in it he requests President Trump to tell people to stand down. 4:17 PM, Trump tweets a video instead of going on TV and addressing the nation, he just tweets a video where he is talking to reporters inside the Capitol.
SOURCE [48:53] This is banana republic crap - https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1346981124032000001
SQEAKY: What is the content of the video? Was he saying back down, was he saying anything important?
MAKO: Quote, "I know your pain, I know your hurt" he begins, "We love you, you're very special, you've seen what happens, you've seen the way others are treated, I know how you feel but go home and go home in peace."
SQEAKY: And that was 4 something, right?
MAKO: 4:11- 4:17 PM.
SQEAKY: Okay. About two-and-a-half or three hours after shit started. Okay.
MAKO: I believe I saw another source say it was exactly 187 minutes.
SQEAKY: That is less helpful for most people.
*Mako and Sqeaky chuckle*
MAKO: Sure. Shortly before 6 PM police start to clear out the Capitol building, eventually clear in the interior. 6 PM, Mayor of Washington D.C. places the city under a twelve hour curfew. 6:01 PM, Trump tweets yet again.
SQEAKY: Is it more "go home" or is it more...
MAKO: More like you're fighting the good fight but go home.
MAKO: 7 PM, Facebook removes Trump's video and other post from the day. In a statement the company says quote "We removed from Facebook and Instagram the recent of President Trump speaking about the protest and the subsequent post about the election result. We made the decision that on balance these posts contribute to rather than diminish the risk of ongoing violence." Bleh.
SQEAKY: When Facebook is your voice of reason, ya done fucked up.
MAKO: Yeah you fucked up pretty bad.
SQEAKY: Facebook only cares about the election insofar as the country remains stable. They don't wanna operate under a fascist totalitarian dictator solely because they can be silenced. As long as there's something vaguely resembling a democracy, they can keep saying whatever the fuck they want, so.
MAKO: In addition to removing his post from the day, Facebook placed him on a twenty-four hour ban. Well it's not really a ban, a suspension I guess.
SQEAKY: Yeah I- yeah, I follow what you mean. Now for some random asshole that's not hard to happen. But for somebody that makes the platform a ton of money-
SQEAKY: -by having lots of content of theirs shared? That's severe. Okay.
MAKO: Two minutes later, roughly, Twitter- Or I guess I should say more accurately around the same time, Twitter removed Trump's tweets from the day and also gives him a suspension but Twitter does it for twelve hours instead of twenty-four.
SQEAKY: Everything Twitter does is short so that makes sense.
MAKO: Uh 7:54 PM, the Republican National Committee condemns the day's violence. Uh just after 8 PM Pence reopens the Senate and they resume. Uh, well actually they don't- they start to recongregate. Around 9 PM Pelosi actually brings the House back in session.
SQEAKY: This is another one of those joint session things where they're all together, right?
SQEAKY: Or are they doing this the-
MAKO: It's a joint session, yeah.
MAKO: 9:53 PM, Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, says "Count me out. Enough is enough." Graham says he hates to see his journey with Trump end this way. Subsequently Graham has said repeatedly that Trump is essential to the Republican party's future. Yikes. Graham was one of Trump's most loyal allies in Congress during Trump's presidency. Okay, yeah cool, whatever. 11:32 PM, House and Senate come back together to resume the joint session and the vote that began some ten hours earlier finally continues. Then 3:42 AM January 7th, Pence calls a majority of the electoral college votes for Biden, finally certifying the results.
SQEAKY: So having all of the votes, all of the congressional and senatorial things in their show, how key the actions of the government are here. They started when there were people outside, they just presumed it was going to be just another day, there's always protestors protesting something about the government.
MAKO: Yeah. Protestors in D.C., that's not an uncommon occurrence.
SQEAKY: Yeah exactly. So they were just going to continue on, they didn't expect anything violent to happen, they didn't expect much of anything to happen really, this segues into the next section that we had some information for: The Eastman Memo.
SQEAKY: The time before uh January 5th-
SQEAKY: Oh my god.
THE EASTMAN MEMO [53:04]
SQEAKY: The Eastman memo. Are you familiar with this?
MAKO: Uh, barely?
SQEAKY: Okay. This is a document written by a guy named Eastman who worked for Trump and was a member of the Federalist Society. So extreme right-wing, he was a lawyer and I'll put a link to the actual... to a PDF document so you can read it. It's hosted in several places, I've got a link to CNN hosting the PDF. They match between the different sites and they highlight a multi-part plan to take over the government with multiple... redundancies in case somebody fails to do their job or there's different levels of opposition and it's entirely full of shit.
SOURCE [53:23] PDF of the actual memo - https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/politics/read-eastman-memo/index.html
MAKO: Of course.
SQEAKY: To start with, it's based on a basterdized and fucked up reading and understanding of how the 12th amendment and the Electoral Count Act work. These are two laws that specify how the House and Senate are to count the electoral votes. And using a quirk in the way one of these is worded, it tries to set up a situation that would have allowed Mike Pence to jeopardize democracy. And unfortunately, laws being just words, if played the right way, could have led to Trump ceasing control in some hypothetical scenarios. And even if he had done this, I don't see the country having gone this way without a fight, probably would have been a lot of bloodshed if Pence had gone this way, but you'll see what I mean here in a moment.
SOURCE [53:52] The 12th amendment calls for a runoff in the event of a tie or plurality - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
SQEAKY: One other thing on this take of the wording, in this memo it also lied and claimed that a Harvard Law professor backed this and because the memo was distributed as a PDF it actually included a link to an article to the exact opposite of what the memo says, that this couldn't happen. So they were lying all the way down and try to dig for a little bit of credibility by doing a thing where you cite something that disagrees with you and hope you only read the headline.
SQEAKY: Shitty. Okay.
SQEAKY: So the memo. It starts with claiming that seven states sent two slates of electors. Ah, we should back up a little bit. The electoral college.
SQEAKY: Not everyone knows how this works. System is braindead simple and was built as a compromise a long time ago before we had fast, efficient ways to count votes. So, we built a federated system where each state would vote, do something to decide how many electoral votes would be sent to... to the Federal government to decide who the President and Vice President would be. Each state can decide how they split this up however they choose, the majority of states the winner takes all of the electoral votes. It's pretty simple. There's two states that don't do that, Nebraska and Maine, nobody cares about them and I live in Nebraska. Nobody cares about them.
SQEAKY: That's fair, right?
MAKO: Yeah, pretty much.
SQEAKY: Yeah I think we have five and Maine has four or five? Yeah okay. Of a total of 538. Is that right? One for each congressman one for each senator?
SQEAKY: It's based on population plus two, that way every state gets at least some representation. Tiny states don't get screwed, Wyoming has plus two, California has a huge amount based on population. Not saying I agree with that compromise but that was the idea in the beginning. So when Wyoming or California have their election, whoever gets fifty-one percent of the vote per their own rules, they send in a slated of electors that say all vote this one way. Now, there being a system here that's federated means there needs to be some communication channel between each state and the federal government. There's actual people that are the electors that are sent and they each cast a vote. Most states have laws that say that the people doing this need to cast their votes a certain way according to the state rules. Not all of them say this and that's an issue for another time. They didn't try to attack it this way. They did try to attack the 2016 election this way but there were faithless electors on both the Trump and Hillary side and that would have been very interesting but this time the idea was to get extra electors sent from multiple states and just try to change the electoral outcome if they could get the wrong electors recognized --and one of the states was Arizona-- they just tried to send electors that would vote for Trump instead of Biden. Well if that happens, you get enough states to flip, then uh yeah the election is won right there. You have managed to ignore several states. They didn't need all seven, I think they only needed five of the states they picked that were sort of in contention that they'd raise scandals with, the different states where they'd been yelling about the votes not adding up like Georgia or Arizona. Well they were lying a bunch, we mentioned that earlier. Well, if they couldn't win at this stage when the counting started, Vice President Pence could, instead of going through the normal line and saying that he hears the states and we verified the electors, we'll count all the states except for these seven, and then we'll go to a vote. And at this stage if Pence had backed out, if he'd recused himself because of a conflict of interest of not listening to his boss the President and not being able to do what the constitution says per his understanding, if he'd recused himself they had sympathetic congressmen ready to step into the role. That was another redundancy built into the Eastman memo plan. Instead, the reason why this plan didn't go off at all, was Pence said no, fuck this, I'm just gonna do what the rules say and he went through counting the electoral votes like normal. If the plan had gone through where Pence had played along or he'd recused himself and a a sympathetic congressman had begun running the the count, the plan was to start running through the states in alphabetical order like the rules say to do, they'd do Alabama which was a Trump and then Arizona. They'd say Arizona has multiple slates of electors, we're throwing out this and the other states with the multiple electors. And when you add up all of those votes, you wind up with slightly more votes for Trump than for Biden because they only added the extra electors in states that were in contention that Trump lost. So by claiming that the states that voted for Biden were dubious, they take them out of the running at this stage and then they try to declare Trump winner here. The memo then even says that the Democrats will complain about it here and the wording is downright childish. Let me pull it up.
SQEAKY: The wording at this stage in the plan is- this is number four, as they've numbered it: "Howls of course from the Democrats who now claim contrary to Tribe's prior position that 270 is required. Says Pence fine, pursuant to the 12th"- and just this, describing people as howling and Trump as- or Pence as saying quote fine, I don't know it's just ridiculous but "...pursuant to the 12th amendment no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House where the votes shall be taken by states." And this is the final part of the plan. I'll skip the half-way legally worded thing but the basic idea is that if nobody wins a majority of the electoral votes, as in there's a tie or there's a... a plurality, so let's say you had three people that actually earned electoral votes, y'know in like approximately equal measure, it goes to the House of Representatives to vote and then each congressman there gets a vote and at the time Republicans outnumbered Democrats in the House so they would have all voted for Trump and then Trump would be President. That's how that plan could have gone with multiple backups and redundancies in place and none of it lines up with how the way the rules are actually intended to work 'cause that clause was intended for a tie or a plurality not a 'we through out a bunch of the votes'.
SQEAKY: And as much as I dislike Pence and disagree with him on so many things, he didn't coward out in that one moment that one day. So he saved probably a lot of bloodshed. We probably wouldn't have had Trump as President because of this one weird trick which is really what this memo boils down to. It's "Take over the country with this one weird trick!", right?
MAKO: You said we wouldn't have had Trump with this one weird trick.
SQEAKY: Yeah but- or because there would have been fighting afterwards. Something would have happened and other people would have stepped in and been very upset about this.
MAKO: Your phrasing is awkward. You're implying that civil war is the one weird trick rather than abusing the rules.
SQEAKY: No, no, no, I meant this is the one weird trick. And then yeah you're right, this one weird trick would have tried to put Trump in power but the rest of the country wouldn't fall for one weird trick. The Supreme Court could step in, stop it, the National Guard could step in, arrest the couple of people involved that were like the keys in planning this, some police force could have stepped in and started shooting people, there's a lot that could have happened to interfere with this but this would have put everything into question and emboldened a lot of Trump supporters.
SQEAKY: Like our next door neighbor was- on January 5th, he was flying a Trump... He was flying a Trump-Pence flag. January 7th he was flying a different right-wing flag, I think a Thin Blue Line flag. We haven't seen the Trump-Pence flag since. So because they lost, they lost a lot of favor with people who used to be on their team.
MAKO: People who only like winners.
SQEAKY: That's one way to view it. But they... People who value credibility. If they would have gotten a joint session of the House and Senate to say that they were President, even if that were obviously legal bullshit, there were millions of people who would have gone along with that credibility.
SQEAKY: Or would have gone along with that because it increased the credibility.
MAKO: It is-
MAKO: -something from a trusted authority that they're being told. This is the big reason why we have so much vaccine problems and COVID problems is 'cause positions of authority that people trust are telling them bad information.
SQEAKY: Like Joe Rogan.
MAKO: I was gonna go straight to Donald Trump but yeah Joe Rogan too.
SQEAKY: Yeah. Yeah. There's no reason to trust that Joe Rogan's correct on a thing but people trust him because he seems friendly and easy to to listen to and he repeats the same things over and over again. But yeah, I don't think that this... if this plan had gone according to Eastman's... to the way Eastman had written it, I don't think this definitely would have led to us becoming a facist state under Trump, but it was a necessary step in getting there.
SQEAKY: Or at least this last election. So if this had happened and then Trump had used some police force to remove key enemies and if he'd somehow strongarmed the Supreme Court, yeah, yeah, we could be a fascist state right now but this by itself? Probably not. But this is real and this also ties into a lot of other real problems. It means that they had plans for --if you've seen in the news-- these bad electors from several states and if you've been paying attention to the news you've seen pictures of these fake documents, but Arizona put some in, I believe Wisconsin had some, pick any news source that has electors on it you'll see them pretty rapidly.
SQEAKY: Yeah. And their their key to the plan here- and this memo was internal for a long time so they were planning this in advance. They had made these electors sometime around November 4th they had this plan in motion. So they were ready to do this, had gotten their fraudulent electors in place, and the plan was to use that to formulate a coup and I think the plan with the crowd --and this part's my speculation-- I think the plan with the crowd was to encourage to do the "right" thing --and here I am making finger quotes-- where the right thing is whatever will make the crowd not attack you.
MAKO: Or the political pressure we were talking about earlier.
SQEAKY: Exactly. And I think they wanted this to be one of those pressure things and it blew up early. The crowd got violent and just stormed inside without the kinds of provocation that Trump wanted to probably --from my speculation-- wanted to prod them with later.
SQEAKY: Because if Pence was standing there inside and he knew that the crowd would try to come rushing through the doors, he would have the ethical dilemma of do what the constitution says or appease the crowd right here and now at the cost of the country in the long run and they dismantled the crowd by the time they started the vote because you said at 6:01 the National Guard started sending people home and they didn't start to reconvene the joint session until eight o'clock.
MAKO: Yeah. Yeah, the session was barely underway when everything started happening and they had to go into recess.
SQEAKY: Yeah. Shit blew up early. But now if they were in the middle of a vote and then these people started pushing their way up to the doors and they were fighting at the doors, it'd be a very different situation. Uh, if you wanna hear from a lawyer about what is going on in the Eastman memo, I uh link to the Opening Arguments podcast. They have uh, what is it, episode 528? It focuses on a lawsuit between President Trump and his niece Mary Trump, but fifty-three minutes in they go over this document and they cover it in great detail and again that's a real lawyer and there's a link for that, I'll also link to the complete text of the 12th amendment, that's just Wikipedia. So, those are the sources on the Eastman memo to show how deadly serious this was and how this was definitely a plan by the Trump organization- by the Trump administration to attempt to retain control of the country. There is no way in my opinion that this is anything other than an attempt at a coup, an attempt to seize control. And I don't-
SOURCE [1:04:40] Opening Arguments podcast disagrees with findings of memo - https://openargs.com/oa528-disgraced-ex-president-sues-niece-mary-trump/
SQEAKY: I can see how someone could say that some parts of this might not have been there, like the Earthkeepers, the terrorists they are, I could see someone saying 'Well they didn't know' or something, but I'm sure Mako's about to change my mind and all that 'cause he's got some information on that, doesn't- don't you?
MAKO: Uh, yes and no I'm not really gonna change your mind on that.
SQEAKY: Yeah. So, it is possible for different parts of all of this pro-Trump bullshit for someone to say 'Well that's not part of a coup' but we have so much evidence that it is a coup, just this memo by itself. This isn't the kind of thing you write up if you're not seriously entertaining the idea of attempting to cease control of the country. And if it was some sort of exercise to protect things, it wouldn't have come so close to actually happening and there are organizations to run and practice things through and ways to label your document as an exerciser practice. So, Trump is a traitor. I don't see any way around that. Anyone who supports him, I have to... I have to come to terms with the idea that either this person is willingly a traitor or doesn't understand what the person they want to follow has done.
MAKO: Well generally from what I have been able to gleam, people feel like there are other greater injustices that justify doing injustices themselves. And of course they're just wrong, but that is the mental state that they are in to try to do these things.
SQEAKY: So I'm not gonna rebut that because I think you're correct for a lot of that, but when you talk to some of these people about what the greater injustices are, a lot of people will say things like black people having rights is one of the greater injustices. So yeah, fuck those people. I hope they all just fucking die. That isn't an invitation to listeners of this podcast to go out and be violent, let them die on their own. They're not wearing masks, they're not vaccinating. Maybe sneeze on 'em.
MAKO: The way I usually like to phrase that is just by saying "The world would objectively be a better place without their presence."
SQEAKY: That is stochastic terrorism. Unless you wanna also say listeners don't go out and make it happen.
MAKO: Don't do it.
SQEAKY: He stared at me for a good long time. I had to stare back hard. Luckily I've regained my vision since that sponsor spot.
SQEAKY: It turns out nothing lasts when Trump does it, even the blindness from Trump vodka.
SQEAKY: Okay, so. The Oathkeepers did play a major role in this. And maybe they di- they weren't in on the whole coup thing but I'm sure you've got something.
SQEAKY: Let's do the outro at the end again? That part worked really well last time 'cause I was just editing and managed to hit the file all in order so we might even between some of our discussion... I don't know.
MAKO: So straight to the sponsor sketch?
SQEAKY: Yeah let's do the sponsor sketch.
SQEAKY, but from the present: Editing ran long so we have one more segment about the Oathkeepers that we'll be bringing to you in the future. At some point we might be putting extra segments in our Patreon but for now we're making this available for everyone. And of course, when we say at the beginning that we're going to record the outro at the end, sometimes we just sometimes forget to so here I am doing it by myself. Thanks to Qeldaar for video and graphics work. Thanks to AlphaWolf294 for transcription. Thanks to all of our Patreon supporters. Our supporters at the Evidence Investigator level or higher include Jarrod, DuktTape, Qeldaar, and Steven Larabee. Thanks for listening and don't forget to like, subscribe, or leave a review, or you can even just tell a friend. If you're not sure where to do any of those things or if you wanna read the show notes or transcripts you can do that online at dysevidentia.com, you can support us at patreon.com/dysevidentia, we have a subreddit where you can chat about whatever at r/dysevidentia, you can tweet at us @dysevidentia, we have a Discord server and a YouTube, links in the show notes, and you can email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. Copyright 2021, BlackTopp Studios, Inc. Intro music was Slow by Pit X. Used with permission.